Street walking cheetah with a heart full of napalm ([info]tritium) wrote,
@ 2008-01-22 15:18:00
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This post is not about Ari, or, the documentary report
I feel that I have a pretty good handle on the sex industry in this country. I mean, there's not much to understand: men pay women or other men for sex, or to dance provocatively, or whatever. Sometimes women are the clients, but I gather that's relatively rare. There are pimps, who are the exploitative businessmen behind it all, sometimes there's a thin veneer of credibility to disguise it from the law, and so forth. I know it's actually quite complicated (please don't ream me out, certain Doctor of Philosophy on my friends list!) and I'm eliding a lot, but the basic outline is pretty straightforward.

This weekend, though, I saw a documentary that convinced me that I will never understand the sex industry in Japan. The film is "The Great Happiness Space" and it's about host boys in Japan.

Host boys are young pretty boys



who are paid, by the hour, to spend time with women in clubs, and show them a good time. I had previously heard of this phenomenon in a travel documentary, but it was presented in kind of a cursory, almost insulting way. (In Soviet Japan, sex worker pays for you!) In actuality, there are many, many points on which I am deeply, deeply confused.

* First of all, are host boys sex workers in the first place? The documentary tackles that question head-on, and the answer turns out to be no, but kinda yes, but really no, but also sometimes yes, but let's go with no. They're pretty clearly not being paid for sex, but sometimes they wind up having sex with clients anyway, but generally that's incidental to what they're being paid for. In fact, one of them points out in an interview that once he has sex with a girl, she often doesn't come back, so he pretty much never does.

* One would assume that host boys' clients are lonely middle-aged women, possibly loney businesswomen or businessmen's wives. One would be wrong, though. In fact, one would make an ass out of you and me, if one were to assume that. Most clients in the host boy club are actually provocatively dressed young women. So why do these girls need to pay for companionship? And where are they getting the money to do so? (It can be very expensive.) Well, the documentary presents an answer for this, an answer that is bourne out in interviews. It turns out, 80-90% of the host club's clients are prostitutes. Women who have sex with men for money. WELL THAT JUST ANSWERS EVERYTHING.

* The host boys speak with this amazing mix of blatant lies ("we never pressure women. We just provide an atmosphere in which she is comfortable buying more.") and blatant truths ("on an average day I'll drink ten of these bottles. I drink one, throw up, drink another, throw up, and so on. Sometimes I see blood.") One of them mentions that he doesn't even know anymore when he's lying and when he's telling the truth. I guess that's not confusing, but it's amazing nonetheless.

* These clubs are holes. Why would someone pay that much money to be entertained in such a cheesy, grungy, depressing atmosphere? I mean, I can understand hanging out in such a place, but damn, why pay that much money for the privilege?

* Where is the money going? These services are expensive, but it's impossible to tell how expensive, because of the lying. Whenever someone mentions a number, it doesn't fit with all the other numbers and seems just plain random. I don't know if any of these people have any idea how much money actually passes through their hands.

* Does the money go to drugs? Drugs are never, ever mentioned, and I would guess that they're not used. After all, host boys, as part of their jobs, must down fantastic quantities of alcohol. So, doing cocaine on top of that is probably not so appealing.

* Undoubtedly much of the money goes to hair-care product and flashy accessories. I wonder how much of Dolce & Gabana and Clairol's global sales are due to host boys.


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[info]ludickid
2008-01-22 08:53 pm UTC (link)
BOY I DONE TOLE YOU I DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW, now I am more cornfustled than ever.

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[info]tritium
2008-01-23 12:23 am UTC (link)
Man, the deeper you go, the more confusing it is. It's like a vexing onion.

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[info]eme_kah
2008-01-22 09:44 pm UTC (link)
Actually... It kinda makes sense to me. Especially if the women are prostitutes. Not that I would know so I would be pulling an answer out of my ass (which sounds both unsanitary and disgustingly pertinent somehow) but it still kinda makes sense.

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[info]tritium
2008-01-23 12:26 am UTC (link)
The ladies involved were so sincere, it seemed to make sense when they were saying it. A pathetic, sad, depressing kind of sense, but sense nonetheless. They were paying boys to lie to them because they were lonely, and I would guess that prostitution is a very lonely profession.

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[info]eme_kah
2008-01-23 01:21 am UTC (link)
I think they're also paying for innocence. From what I've read, prostitutes are usually sexualized very very young so that they don't often have that innocent male/female interaction. It seems to me that they probably want to get that kind of feeling that most other women get when they're twelve or thirteen; you know, getting a crush on a guy and just "hanging" out with a cute boy without worrying about being seen as a sexual object (which is what they're used to getting all day for most of their lives.) And going to a regular nightclub as adult women would not be the same since obviously those interactions are not devoid of sexual messages, etc. Anyway, that's my totally ignorant take on it (since I haven't seen the doc).

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[info]eme_kah
2008-01-23 01:23 am UTC (link)
Or anyway, the Illusion of Innocence.

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[info]kudaspeaks
2008-01-22 09:51 pm UTC (link)
I watched a Japanese grandma show about one of those clubs (it was called Number One or something like that, can't find it out there though) and all the guys were competing to be named the Top Guy by the club manager. Those dudes were ruthless in trying to make each other look bad. They also were very ashamed of what they were doing.

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[info]tritium
2008-01-23 12:26 am UTC (link)
What the heck is a Japanese grandma show?

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Must I explain every term that only exists in my head?
[info]kudaspeaks
2008-01-23 03:43 am UTC (link)

A television show that was clearly made for grandmas. It has nice looking young people, no sexy stuff, very little violence and it moves sloooooow. Also, they were broadcast out of San Mateo between 7-9 on Saturday night on KCTS, a community channel.

This one was actually kind of a barnburner by grandma story standards.

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BULLSHIT THEORIZING THEATER
[info]catamorphism
2008-01-22 09:56 pm UTC (link)
I hypothesize that:
- straight women like to spend time with young pretty boys
- straight women don't necessarily like having sex with men (given that most of the men they'd be having sex with are straight men, who are largely lousy at it), or at least, they don't like it enough to pay for it, or at least, there are plenty of ways to get it for free if you're a straight woman who likes having sex with straight men.
- straight women who are also sex workers both like to spend time with young pretty boys (being straight women) and have the money to pay for it.
- straight female sex workers do get to have sex with lots of men anyway, but most of them aren't young pretty boys (since why would young pretty boys have to pay for sex?)

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Re: BULLSHIT THEORIZING THEATER
[info]tritium
2008-01-23 12:28 am UTC (link)
There's something about it that's even sadder than your theory. They pay boys to lie to them, to lead them on.

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Re: BULLSHIT THEORIZING THEATER
[info]catamorphism
2008-01-23 12:36 am UTC (link)
Well, maybe that's JUST WHAT WOMEN REALLY WANT. (AREN'T I SO WONDERFULLY POLITICALLY CORRECT FOR SAYING THE SEXIST THINGS WE'RE ALL THINKING...)

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[info]zbtron
2008-01-22 11:38 pm UTC (link)
maybe the women enjoy subjugating men the way they are subjugated. power trip sort of thing.

also, the best time to do cocaine is when you are W-A-S-T-E-D. and its super expensive. i'm guessing that's where a lot of their money goes. also, japan is super expensive, just in general.

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[info]tritium
2008-01-23 12:29 am UTC (link)
See, the problem is, even though they pay to host boys, the host boys kind of still treat them like crap. They lie to them, lead them on. I don't think that is what's going on here.

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[info]zbtron
2008-01-23 12:43 am UTC (link)
i dont understand why you think they're being led on. i think they know exactly what they're paying for.

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[info]tritium
2008-01-23 01:53 am UTC (link)
That was one of the more interesting points of the movie, I thought. Yes, of course the girls realize what's going on, but they are allowing themselves to be deluded, to be put into a fantasy world, and are paying for the privilege.

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[info]zbtron
2008-01-23 01:59 am UTC (link)
guys play video games. perhaps we are just interested in more sophisticated illusions.

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[info]catamorphism
2008-01-23 02:11 am UTC (link)
guys play video games.

And watch porn, and hell, patronize hookers! Arguably even though everybody ostensibly understands what's going on when a guy visits a prostitute, there's still a certain amount of fantasy-world-ism going on in the mind of the customer. Or if you don't buy that argument for vanilla sex workers, how about people who visit professional dominatrices (or the rarer professional submissives)?

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[info]zbtron
2008-01-23 04:01 am UTC (link)
that's a different kind of fantasy baby.

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[info]catamorphism
2008-01-23 04:03 am UTC (link)
I don't know whether you mean it's a different kind of fantasy from video games or a different kind of fantasy from the boys [info]tritium was talking about, But in any case, as an FTM transsexual, I would not characterize the changes in my thoughts after I started taking testosterone as a move to "more sophisticated" illusions, exactly.

Edited at 2008-01-23 04:04 am UTC

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[info]zbtron
2008-01-23 04:16 am UTC (link)
i'm saying that paying a woman to have sex with you and pay her to pretend that she is into it is a different fantasy than paying someone to dominate you, often times not even in an overtly sexual way. in many cases, in the former example of a prostitute, she is selling her body, and in the latter case as a dom, she is selling a service. i would say that most pro-doms have chosen that profession over others, or in combination with others, whereas prostitutes are far too often forced, financially or otheriwse, into their circumstances.

srry about the comma splices.
xoxo

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[info]catamorphism
2008-01-23 06:12 am UTC (link)
i'm saying that paying a woman to have sex with you and pay her to pretend that she is into it is a different fantasy than paying someone to dominate you, often times not even in an overtly sexual way.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it takes an unconventional definition of "sexual" to say that someone who patronizes a pro-dom isn't paying for something "sexual". If you define "sexual" as "involving the genitalia", then sure, duh. But that's not what sex is really about. I think people patronize sex workers (pro-doms or vanilla prostitutes) for a wide variety of reasons, and if you talked to some, I suspect that some people patronize vanilla sex workers for similar reasons to the people who patronize pro-doms, and others patronize them for entirely different reasons.

in many cases, in the former example of a prostitute, she is selling her body, and in the latter case as a dom, she is selling a service.

I see that as implying that all a prostitute has to do is lie back and be there. IMO, sex work can be performed with skill, or without it. There's enough demand that either unskilled or skilled sex workers can stay in business, but to say that every prostitute is *only* selling her body rather than her ability to provide sexual pleasure, to fulfill fantasies (for some people, paying money for sex *is* the fantasy, not fucking a woman who's pretending she's into it), or to provide companionship is a gross generalization.

i would say that most pro-doms have chosen that profession over others, or in combination with others, whereas prostitutes are far too often forced, financially or otheriwse, into their circumstances.

With all due respect, I find that statement rather classist. Yes, yes, it's easy to think of pro-doms as educated women who choose that occupation rationally and prostitutes as 12-year-olds who are forced onto the streets in order to escape their abusive homes and provide for themselves, but life isn't that simple.

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[info]zbtron
2008-01-23 12:25 pm UTC (link)
abhorring sex slavery isnt classist. are 8 year old girls ever sold into pro-dom-slavery? the fact is is that more often pro-doms maintain a lot more control over their work than "vanilla prostitutes," whether that control is a pimp or drugs. its not classist, this shit happens. if you think that most prostitutes do it as some form of sexual liberation you are naive. with all due respect.

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[info]speranzosa
2008-01-23 03:31 am UTC (link)
The sex industry is amazingly complicated. I think the important thing to keep in mind is that all clients are paying for fantasy. Whether they utilize the services of dancers, prostitutes, pretty boys, Hooters girls, pro-dommes, pro-subs, phone sex operators, or porn actors (or anyone I left out), clients pay for a fantasy. Sometimes the fantasy is that they get to abuse a girl, sometimes that a girl will degrade them, sometimes that a boy will worship and adore them... whatever feels good. Clients pay for a fantasy that makes them feel good.

There's an anthropology book that does a good job addressing this relationship: G-Strings and Sympathy. It's a few years old now -- should be in the local library. The intro and third chapter pretty much spell out the client-provider fantasy relationship. It's a good read, when you're not changing diapers! ;)

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[info]tritium
2008-01-23 03:43 am UTC (link)
It might be a good read when I'm feeding him. I need passive entertainment for that.

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[info]speranzosa
2008-01-23 09:55 pm UTC (link)
One thing that I found dangerous about studying the sex industry is that it made me bitter about my own romantic life. I'm much happier studying evangelical youths. I know you're not going to do a five-year study on the industry, but I figured I'd tell you. Valerie Jenness started the field of prostitute activism studies and she had to stop doing it after ten years, too. She wrote one landmark book and a few articles before throwing in the tile and switching to hate crimes.

Good luck with everything! :)

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